2.08 "Into the Deep" discussion thread

[agramontes]

LZcClotho, If you feel strongly go ahead and post but be prepared right?
For other people's opinions, especially where other people may not understand and misinterpret what you've written.
That happens. Don't stress it. It's ok.
I think your points about Rumple are valid. He is actually more wicked than Regina and even possibly more wicked than Cora.
IMHO that's the producers intention, for him to be unremorseful and for the audience to come to see him as responsible for a lot of what has happened. But not everyone is going to get that right away. And regardless they see him as charming and persuasive and a lot of people will fall for that. Good luck with the post.

[giftofamber]

Lzclotho: Honestly, I don't think it's worth the firestorm because those fangirls won't see your points anyway being so fixed in their point of view and there's already enough antagonism between the two fandoms.

Me personally, I don't really see it as a contest of who is more evil. Regina and Rumple have both done evil things because she was the Evil Queen and he was the Dark One. Rumple was corrupted by power and magic from an evil creature long before he 'created' the Evil Queen. When I see either of those characters do something evil, I go ok, I expect that because the Enchanted Forest defined them as Evil. I don't hold those characters to the same moral standards that I do to say Emma, who is supposed to be the Savior. I see both characters as potentially redeemable outside of the Enchanted Forest away from the power that has corrupted them.

[kniggi]

@lzclotho: I agree with you for the most part. But that honestly doesn't make me like Rumpel any less.

Overall thoughts on the episode:

I thought it was pretty great. There was barely a moment I was bored (except for those parts with Hook or cheesy Snowing scenes), which is sorely because of Regina and Rumpel. They are what makes the show so fun and interesting. (Sorry, OUAT writers, but Hook is not Regina 2.0 and never will be. He lacks that certain something only Lana brings to the table.)

I also loved Mulan and Aurora in this one. Sure, I shipped Sleeping Warrior the tiniest bit before now, but damn. This episode practically made them canon. (And Mulan makes me swoon. Don't even ask me why. She's more of a knight in shining armor than Emma is at the moment.)

What I really didn't like about this episode? Emma. And not because of the "Blame Regina for ALL the things!" scene. I get where she's coming from. She's stressed, wants to go back home, worries about her son and David and she's human. Of course she wants to blame SOMEONE for all the shit that's happened to her. She can't blame Snow anymore, so the most likely target is Regina. So I'm just gonna sit here and wait until Emma realizes that the people who really fucked her over were August and Neal. Then Regina can realize that Rumpel, Jefferson and Whale are responsible for her life and they can both go skipping across flower fields and SOAK THEM IN BLOOD. (No wait, got carried away. Sorry.)
No, what annoyed me about her is that they SKEWER her damn character to make Captain Swan seem plausible when it ISN'T. I mean, really? The woman who has so many big trust and intimacy issues that it takes her more than half a season to warm up to Mary Margaret knows Hook for what, three episodes, and suddenly she gets all VULNERABLE and SPARKLY-EYED because Hook may 'care' for her? Big fucking turnaround you had there, Miss Swan.
I miss OUR Emma. The Emma who crushed a guys face into a steering wheel. The Emma that goes around destroying Regina's property wearing nothing but a tanktop. The Emma that would have pushed Hook off a cliff the second he opened his mouth.

I need Swan Queen back. Withdrawal is making me irrational and anxious. I need it like Regina needs magic!

[virginsuicid3s]

I liked this episode. It wasn't as boring as some of the others.
I hope Charming doesn't wake up and Regina ends up being the one who has to bring Emma and Snow back... that'd be interesting.

That Regina/Henry was scene was fantastic; it was, by far, my favorite scene in this episode. I never blamed Henry for anything (IMO, he was right to be scared of Regina after finding out what she'd done and, more important, he's a kid which means he stills sees the world in black and white) but I admit: I was getting tired of Henry constantly despising her. Their little moment when Regina grabs his hand and they both smile at each other made my heart melt.

I'm honestly getting tired of Snowing. I never liked Charming (What's his real name, anyway? Has it ever been mentioned on the show?) but I do like Snow, so their scenes in season one were tolerable. However, last night's scene in the red room made me laugh out loud. Genuinly. I found that "I'll always find you" cliché ridiculous and unnecessary. Definitely neither the right time nor the right place to have that small talk.

I absolutely loved the scenes that involved Regina. Regina and Rumpel are my favorite characters so all their scenes are usually brilliant. I love their dynamic; it makes the show much more interesting, IMO. And let's not forget Granny and Ruby - the show wouldn't be the same without them, either (again, only IMO).

I was a little disappointed in Emma, though. "Oh yeah, princess. You're going back to sleep." Why didn't she ask Aurora if she'd be okay with that first? I mean, we're talking about a room that's on fire and you can get burned.
I don't blame her for blaming Regina. Emma has just found out about the Regina and Snow she never knew. She's angry and she has the right to feel that way. After all, no matter what the circunstances, Regina enacted the curse that kept her away from her parents for 28 years.
I do believe they'll eventually find a way to coexist, just not right now.

And... *tantantan* unpopular opinion: I don't dislike Captain Swan. They don't have the chemistry that Emma and Regina have but they're likable. I think what I want to say is that their scenes are okay to me.
I agree with most of you, though. Hook is in no way Regina 2.0. The only thing that's been irking me is that the reasons people list in favour of Hook/Emma, can also be used in favour or Regina/Emma, yet Swan Queen is the "crack ship".

[fallonash]

A few random thoughts:

I'm SO OVER Snow and Charming. I cheered when he got stuck in the sleeping curse. Of course I know that means she's coming home soon, but like, the darn show isn't fooling anyone. Come on! There's no actual danger anywhere that they won't get each other, everyone knows they're endgame, and it's just boring me to tears. How about they are actually forced to cohabitate and actually do every-day mundane things together? Show us whey they work together rather than how they don't wanna be apart.

As much as I wanna spare Regina having to face Cora again, in FTL I'm definitely cheering for her. When she pulled that thing with Aurora's heart, I cheered too. And Hook double-crossing, well, everyone, made me like him a little more.

I liked Cora calling Snow out on her 'can't help herself' but save the innocents. The Mulan vs. Snow thing was... interesting. I don't blame Mulan at all. Wanting Aurora back FAR trumps the 'let's get some strangers back to a land I've never seen and am not entirely sure exists'.

REGINA! LOVED that scene with Regina and Henry in the chem lab, of course. I loved how they were having a conversation that made it apparent that these two people actually know each other. The little smiles, the way she called him sweetheart, ALL OF THAT. The way she's so matter-of-fact and unapologetic about what she's doing. And she's not gonna pretend like she cares about David and Snow finding each other for any other reason than because Henry likes them. And Henry gets that, and it's ok, because he knows her! I WANT MORE OF IT. I'm having Xena feels of the 'you're my greater good' kind. Henry won't like that, of course, whatwith his 'help all the people' thing going, but uhm. I wish we could force-feed certain Xena eps to the writers.

Also, was there some spark of /something/ in Henry's voice when he realized Rumpel had all the ingredients for the curse just lying around? Like maybe he's starting to realize that his mom is not the root of all the troubles... GOSH I HOPE SO. Same with everyone else in Storybrooke, really. Let's all blame Regina for cursing us! Sure, she's not blame-less, far from it, but how about the part where 'let's blame Rumpel for wanting this curse to happen and working tirelessly for a couple of decades to make it happen'. No? Didn't think so. Bah.

Uhm. Sorry about the ranting.

[multitudeofsilence]

Nov 26, 2012 0:53:34 GMT -6 shawngf said:

I have less issue with Emma's thoughtless blame because I think we're supposed to condemn it. I think she is frustrated and angry and completely over FTL. Real people become unreasonable under extreme stress, why shouldn't Emma who has such a limited emotional palette? Was it kind or empathetic? No but I think it's preposterous to assume Emma has adapted enough to this world to just nod her head at a blood feud that even we find just a bit absurd. Emma isn't a flat character and she can't be perfect if she's going to be interesting. In the grand scheme of things, this says less about her relationship with Regina(or anyone's viewpoint on Regina) and more about Emma's stress levels.

This right here ^ I'm always dumbfound by how the majority of this fandom jumps down Emma's throat whenever she does or says something unsaviour like. If this show has taught us anything is that heroes and villains aren't black and white. The hero is full of flaws and the villain can have a redeemable heart. Why can't Emma muck up once in a while? It sucks and it hits you right in the Swan Queen feels but it's not fair to attack her character because of one line said out of frustration. For one, blame the stupid writing that has befallen her character. Second, put aside your deep and profound love for the Evil Queen played by the gorgeous Lana and put yourself in the shoes of Emma for a tiny second. Here she is trapped in another world, with a mother she never knew and new found knowledge of a land she never believed in, being chased and almost killed by mythical creatures; surprisingly Emma hasn't lost her mind. The reason she's in this mess is because of her incessant desire to save Regina ::winkwink:: had she let Regina been sucked by the wraith none of this would had happen; Of course we can trace this back to Rumple who is the real a**hole but Emma chooses to blame the women closest to her heart ;D
All defending Emma aside, what I find interesting about this scene is how as soon as Emma finishes her "I blame Regina" they decided to jump right into Regina and Henry having a moment of growth in their relationship. Henry is finally getting over blaming Regina for everything and I think this is what Emma is going to have to wrestle with once she gets back to SB. What I took from those two scenes is the foreshadowing of what's to come for Swan Queen. How can they build a relationship while letting go of that desire to play the blame game with each other?

[elviswhataguy]

multitudeofsilence - agreed with the juxtaposition of the "Blame!" scene with the - really nice - Regina and Henry magic chemistry set scene. I think this strongly suggests that we're supposed to know that, basically, Emma is thinking wrong-headedly, and I can live with waiting for her to change her mind once she and Snow get back to Storybrooke.

My earlier, facetious, comment, was aimed more at how ridiculous Emma's assertion sounded coming right after Snow's reasonable take on the blame thing; and I'm really not sure it was supposed to sound *as* silly and shortsighted as it came across, at least to me.

I think the show has let Emma down this season. After Regina, she's my favorite character, but I don't think I've rolled my eyes as much as I have over the last few episodes. As kniggi notes, Hook is a tool and Emma really shouldn't be taken in that easily.

*SPOILER for those who haven't seen this episode yet*

In other news ... poor Aurora. I was totally rooting for her when she was all, "F--- you, Cora!" and then we got the twist at the end and I was devastated. I'm now trying to figure out how the show's going to have Regina save the day there too and get the girl's heart back. (In my head, Regina's redemption means she goes around saving everyone from all kinds of awful things. Just 'cause.)

[julese53]

I thought the ep wasn't half bad, just too much freaking Charming. I am sooo sick of him being the center of every ep this season.

I assumed that the heart Cora was communicating through at the end was Aurora's. Is that correct? So, who took it out of her? Is that what Hook had in his satchel? Does that mean he has magic, or can anyone be taught to take out a heart? And, why did Cora not do that in the first place, it would have made Aurora totally compliant, and she would have told Cora anything she wanted to hear.
If I'm wrong about that heart, just smack me. ;D

[multitudeofsilence]

Julese53- you're right, hook did take Aurora's heart, if you re-watch the final scene Cora is impressed with Hook because of it As to how he did it? Well I think that left us all scratching our heads so good job writers. Although once again, as many here have pointed out, they seem to be writing Hook to parallel Regina and I think it's pointless and complete shite!!! I'm sooo done with Hook and his smug beard.

[enjoymyshirt]

Nov 26, 2012 0:56:04 GMT -6 giftofamber said:

So what I'm hearing is that I can wait til tomorrow morning to watch the episode?

Also, *of course* Emma is mad and blames Regina: she wanted the whole curse thing to be over a woman, not a man. Emma was still holding out hope even after the whole Graham affair. That's my headcanon & I'm sticking to it (at least til I watch the episode).

I think it's an interesting parallel back to Regina blaming Snow rather than Cora for Daniel's death. They seem to do that a lot with Regina/Emma-the crappy childhoods, losing love due to crushed hearts, betrayal coming from someone you'd least expect, abandonment of their parents. It echoes back to what Lana said about how there is a lot of common ground with them(not that they'd admit though . . . .

[geschwitz]

I think it's an interesting parallel back to Regina blaming Snow rather than Cora for Daniel's death. They seem to do that a lot with Regina/Emma-the crappy childhoods, losing love due to crushed hearts, betrayal coming from someone you'd least expect, abandonment of their parents. It echoes back to what Lana said about how there is a lot of common ground with them(not that they'd admit though . . . .

That's a great point. I hadn't thought of the parallel before. I think it's underlining the fact that the misplaced blame is symptom of the deepest wound that needs to be healed. Both Regina and Emma have a ton of work to do in figuring out where their rage comes from, and I like that we're not supposed to take Emma's blame at face value, but as a sign of so much of where her emotional energy is.

[fangirlinit]

What bothers me most about the "blame game" is why it took so long for it to come up in conversation. This was supposed to be Emma and Snow's mother/daughter bonding time, yet all we've really seen are few awkward hugs and that one scene wherein Emma visits her nursery. They've been there, what, a few days? and the person responsible for their troubles hardly gets a mention until now? Snow was kept from her husband and daughter for years, framed for murder, and she doesn't want to I don't know maybe unload a little frustration?

I think the only other scene in which Regina is brought up is when Emma lets it slip to Cora that they share Henry. You would think Snow would have some words with her about the woman who had been raising her son the past ten years. And after meeting Cora wouldn't Emma want a little assurance from Snow about the kind of person Regina is? Knowing now what her mother is capable of I think Emma would want to know a few things about the adoptive mother of her child.

I don't want to make this sound like Regina is this "horrible person," but she did commit some awful crimes that need to be addressed by the people who suffered as a result.

[giftofamber]

So I finally watched the episode (not sure if that says something about how busy I've been or that my interest in waning quickly without the Swan Queen), and I had a few comments. First, the CGI is really starting to bother me. The fire in the red room was especially yawn worthy, although I confess I wasn't that unhappy that karma finally caught up to Henry in light of his third degree burns. Second, zombies? Really? Snow and Emma had to fight zombies Cora created?

The episode did open up some interesting thoughts to the types of things a heart would be useful for with Cora using Aurora's heart to speak through her. Having this kind of power makes it really unbelievable that Regina or Cora would simply 'not remember' whose heart was whose....especially since Regina seemed to know exactly which heart was Graham's in season one.

I agree with everyone who said Emma blaming Regina was a huge dialogue leap. I think it was supposed to circle back from Emma's prior comment that she blamed herself for Henry eating the turnover and now she blames Regina, but I'm not entirely sure *how* she would have come to that conclusion from what Snow said. Cora was encouraging Regina to blame Snow in Stable Boy, whereas Snow was encouraging Emma not to blame anyone in Into the Deep (plus JMo just wasn't able to pull off the same level of anger that Lana did).

One last comment: Charming pricking his finger on the spinning wheel--does this make him Sleeping Beauty with Rumplestiltskin as Maleficent? LOL

[awomanontheverge]

I was ridiculously aggravated by Emma's "Let's blame Regina" comment, especially after Snow had JUST given a super condensed version as to why Regina did what she did. I understand it carried over from the "I blame myself" comment Emma made, but still...it really didn't make any sense and I think it was just a result of poor writing. We've seen Emma flip flop in her emotions and viewpoints of particular characters so much within the last 8 episodes that it's rather alarming. They're changing the dynamic that made Emma likeable, and not for the better, IMO.

[femmemajority]

Dec 1, 2012 19:07:44 GMT -6 giftofamber said:

One last comment: Charming pricking his finger on the spinning wheel--does this make him Sleeping Beauty with Rumplestiltskin as Maleficent? LOL

YES! There is a funny gif out there that parallels him pricking his finger and passing out with the Sleeping Beauty Disney cartoon.